Dessalines
admin
434M

Strong moderation abilities, and instance admins like ourselves who actually ban white supremacist communities and not sit on their hands about hosting the largest one on the internet, for years.

edit: like just today, we had a few TERF communities try to set up here. It took us less than a day to ban them. Its not difficult.

@Atemu
124M

That should probably be in the README/FAQ.
From what I could gather in the recent Reddit thread, Lemmy becoming yet another Reddit clone that turns into a Nazi bastion is a common concern driving people away from giving the platform a chance.

@dizzy
creator
114M

That’s good to hear, I’ve got very little idea of how the fediverse works nor how moderation works on these types of sites so thanks for clarifying. I had a look to see if c/the_donald existed and although it seems to, I could see the following:

Make America Great Again removed by mod

No Posts.

Does that mean the community has been removed by a mod then or something else?

@nutomic
admin
164M

That’s exactly what it means.

@dizzy
creator
54M

So with the way Lemmy currently works, could someone create a community, write some hate speech in the community description and that description stays up forever?

E: Apologies if it would have been more appropriate to ask this question in c/lemmy_support

Maya
admin
114M

I’m just gonna guess here, but I’m pretty sure there are manual steps an instance admin can take to nerf that stuff in the database

Additionally, there is a plan to implement a purge feature for particularly egregious posts, but as long as these communities are not allowed to spread their roots here, there shouldn’t be much of an issue. Seeing fascists and bigots getting whacked in the mod log doesn’t bother me much at all.

There’s nothing stopping them from setting up their own instances (like Gab did with Mastodon), but they will be ostracized from the fediverse.

@abbenm
84M

I think this is the perfect response, and part of my optimism about lemmy. I hope that this view of moderating is hard-coded (so to speak) into the DNA of lemmy, and I think it’s just as important to have a strong ethos like this as it is to have a well-designed link-aggregating tool.

@Jassu
54M

How does this work with upcoming federation features and de-centralised nature of the lemmy platform?

Dessalines
admin
104M

A community is still ultimately controlled by the instance where it lives, along with those admins and mods.

@AI_WAIFU
64M

But like, what’s stopping Nazi’s from creating their own instances and linking up into a giant Nazi federation?

@yogthos
124M

The reality is that they can already do that with plenty of existing services. Lemmy isn’t providing a new an unique opportunity for nazis to communicate that wasn’t available to them previously.

That said, the moderation and federation rules do appear to work in practice as seen with Mastodon where similar concerns have been raised. The one nazi instance is its own bubble, and nobody federates with it.

@diorama
94M
related: isolated gab

A few weeks ago you could find Gab (neo-nazi/white supremacist leaning instance) at the top of this list about most of the instances in the fediverse. Gab was a huge instance: ~1mln accounts, i.e. ~2x the number of accounts of Mastodon flagship instance. (numbers were inflated btw)
Why did Gab leave the fediverse? Because the rest of the fediverse campaigned to de-federate a neo-nazi/white supremacist instance. At the end of its story in the fediverse, Gab had an estimated insularity of 99.3% (source): that means 7 messages out of 1000 were directed outside that instance. The estimation is an upper limit, including outwards messages that actually cannot reach other instances (since these instances suspended Gab).
Now, according to the source above, Gab devs are discussing to drop the support for the fediverse. In the meantime, it is an insular instance.

@aeroplain
43M

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Maya
admin
184M

A code of conduct!

More seriously I think Mastodon’s general rejection of Gab taught us that federated software can have an immune system in the form of instance admins/mods blocking federation.

@diorama
14M

Yes but caveat: code of conduct is not enough. [note] The point is the community (adminx being part of that) is ready to prompt rejections of harmful content. This can only be done with awareness, education, communication, etc..

[note] In principle, it may even be irrelevant for lil’ instances where everybody knows each other… but it helps.

Maya
admin
44M

agreed, though I think it’s good to emphasize that individuals who don’t align with an instance’s content boundaries can go find another instance.

@Mehran
104M

The main thing preventing that is capturing of initial user base.

The next part is finding a person who has some understanding psychology and know what a healthy community looks like to moderate.

Something like a code of conduct is typically the correct way of doing things. Neither is strong moderation abilities, since almost all moderators are influenced by other users and their own opinions.

@neothefox
84M

Me. See, Voat ended up like it did because of the blatant bias of banning. I hope Lemmy would get all kinds of people here to stay, not just one political leaning or subset. The federation sure looks like a good solution for this, since one can simply ban a whole instance they don’t like and be done. As long as we all have an interest in Lemmy it should’t become an echo chamber.

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@Aeolun
14M

Facists are people too!

Just bad people.

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@drhead
74M

Well the first thing preventing it is that they already implemented their contingency plan months ago and the subreddit has had submissions restricted for three months already while people were shuffled off to their new dedicated site, so the ban was a purely symbolic gesture on Reddit’s part anyways.

downvote them Into Obscurity

I’m genuinely curious, looking to move from Reddit due to heavy-handed mod abuse and the extreme leftist bias of virtually all the big subreddits. Is Lemmy going to be a place where free speech is honored, or will conservatives always get the boot like on Reddit? I’m not talking about hate speech or calls for violence, I’m just as against that as the next person. But I’d like to know I’m not going to get banned because my opinion differed from that of a mod.

Maya
admin
224M

I think the important point to stress about how federated software works is that you can always host your own, or find an instance hosted by someone whose views you jive with, even if the flagship instance has moderation you don’t like. This is explicitly planned for, in fact–Lemmy has features surrounding convenient NSFW flags on content at the same time that porn is totally banned on the flagship instance (this one). That’s because it’s meant for people to host their own instances where they can moderate how they like. Tradcath Lemmy? Sure! No-English-allowed Lemmy? Si quieres, sí se puede.

@abbenm
224M

The problem is that a lot of people actively engaging in hate speech and harassment, or actively supporting it, regularly blur the lines between ‘free speech’ and hate speech, and have a distorted worldview where they represent themselves as a persecuted minority, when really they are just flagrantly violating rules and need to be banned immediately.

So I think it is very necessary, and very needed to have a healthy skepticism of people who claim to just be interested in free speech, because to those who have been following the modern evolution of trolling and harassment, those concepts have been utilized as a weapon by trolls who want to engage in hate speech and harassment.

You aren’t talking about hate speech or calls for violence, so I would think you ought to be fine. But trolls who engage in coordinated harassment and try to call THAT behavior “free speech” are the #1 problem to watch out for.

The whole point of federation is that instead of joining a single centralized service, you’re joining the federation by joining a specific instance or creating your own instance. If you feel moderators on a certain instance are being heavy-handed you have the option to use a different instance which can still communicate with that other instance.

As the network topology is completely different on a federated platform, moderation actually happens in two layers; instance-to-user and instance-to-instance. Instances each have their own codes of conduct, which users on that specific instance are expected to respect. On top of that, instances also have the ability to block (defederate) with other instances if it is seen as necessary for the protection of the users of that instance.

You may be interested in how this works in practice on Mastodon. Mastodon.social, the flagship instance, has a code of conduct and a list of blocked instances along with - importantly - the reason they are blocked. As you will notice, not one of those instances is blocked for “different opinions” but rather for harassment and illegal content.

Further reading https://www.theverge.com/2019/7/12/20691957/mastodon-decentralized-social-network-gab-migration-fediverse-app-blocking

@wraptile
banned
64M

or will conservatives always get the boot like on Reddit?

If it stinks of shit everywhere you go then maybe it’s time to look under your shoe? 🤔

While there’s value in conservative thought most people who subscribe to it don’t know how to exercise it.

@Decibel
34M

Is the ‘federated’ nature of Lemmy specifically setup to allow a “Lemmy/The_Donald”? If you don’t want to see it, just remove that federation?

Dessalines
admin
74M

Blocklists already work in our federation testing instances.

@Panzerfaust
banned
-84M

Just ban politics here.

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@Panzerfaust
banned
04M

Fascism is a political ideology.

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@Panzerfaust
banned
-64M

Nacism is a left wing ideology like communism. They have the same dad - socialism. I don’t see anyone complaining about communists here. Why ban one and not another?

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@Panzerfaust
banned
-94M

You know what NSDAP stands for? National Socialist German Workers’ Party. Socialist!

Communism is just more advanced version of socialism, that is all.

@diorama
104M

What about opening any History book and see how little socialist NSDAP was? Shall we leave nazis define themselves or are we open to assess what they were critically?

You know the name was chosen specifically to make people vote the NSDAP, right?

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@Panzerfaust
banned
-74M

Anarhists are far right, not fascists.

@diorama
64M

I think your political compass got hijacked by some [EDIT: contemporary] US misconception. As an example, here what fascism is according to an Anarchopedia stub.
I may add: in the US a significant minority of anarchists considers anarcho-capitalism as related to anarchism. This is highly debatable and debated as you can find here.

EDIT: one of the most (at least historically) influential US-based union is the Industrial Workers of the World. Please check your claims.

@Panzerfaust
banned
-64M

https://mises.org/library/why-nazism-was-socialism-and-why-socialism-totalitarian

Both Nazism as Communism brought misery to this world. It would be better if they never existed at all.

@nutomic
admin
-14M

Get out of here with that horseshoe theory.

Edit: Gonna ban you cause nobody needs those shit takes.

@CXgamer
74M

Shit, was looking for an alternative to Reddit, but I see that this is not the place for open discussion.

The person you banned was not even racist, sexist or xenophobic. He was banned because you disagree.

deleted by creator

For real. Disingenuously misrepresenting the social forces which lead to the rise of the Nazi regime to score points on the people who fought to stop it is coming very close to Holocaust denial by proxy.

It’s not as blatant as outright denial, but it aims to absolve the groups who were responsible and rob us of the historical understanding necessary to prevent such things from happening in the future.

Now that this user is banned, can we do some potential cleanup in /Security? PF was filling it with posts that are essentially the output of an news aggregator which made it difficult to see other content. I’m not sure where the threshold of spam is, but I’m surprised PF didn’t trigger a posts per day/minute review in /Security.

@nutomic
admin
43M

That seems like something a mod should take care of. It looks like @cipherpunk@dev.lemmy.ml isnt very active, but I dont know who else to make a mod.

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@nutomic
admin
64M

Definitely, but I didnt want to ban them just because of the name.

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@Panzerfaust
banned
04M

deleted by creator

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@dizzy
creator
134M

From my comment that was posted clearly for you to see before you kindly informed me of what I know and don’t know:

I’ve got very little idea of how the fediverse works nor how moderation works on these types of sites

A loosely moderated place to ask open ended questions

If your post is

  1. Open ended
  2. Not offensive

it’s welcome here!